ct525 class

[teaminsane]

Y would Gene want to let a built motor run the crate class? he had 33 cars the last race as it was.


My point is when was last time Jerry or Jay or Danny or yourself built a Steel head engine that ran top 5 consistantly for under $8,000? I think the world of Jerry Newman. He will be who I get to freshen my crate. But the last time i talked to him about a competitive steel head (3 years ago) he was $18,000. I don't have that in my crate car race ready. Also how many steel heads have had engine trouble this year? Blackburn, Raymond, Mabe (twice) all had engine trouble this year. How many crates had engine trouble?


What u are reading about the 604 being compared to a steel head and a ct525 compared to a super is in on asphalt. NOT dirt. the 604 was designed to compete in asphalt late model stocks and the 525 to run in ASA type late models. A good dirt super motor makes about 800 hp. I seen the dyno sheets off of Austin Dillon's new super motor and it was more than that. No way you can take the 525 and compete with that.

If i was going to spend $5,000 to just make laps and have fun. I would build another 4 cylinder and give Dawg some competition.

I know we're not in this to make any money, but i'm also not trying to lose anymore than i can help.

[TeamOnestar]

Jimmy beat me to the punch about that $10,500 steel head. There are Super Streets with more than that in their motors. You guys may not realize it but those engines have the BEST of everything in them. I had it figured at about $22,000 in just parts and that is minus labor and machine work. They are 100% maxed out and that's the reason for so many engine failures in that class. The only difference in those motors and a super motor is the heads and cubic inch. It is probably cheaper to build a super motor than a steel head because there are Cup heads that can be bought for cheap (comparatively speaking). I think the crate class is great. It has allowed many people the opportunity to race that would otherwise be spectators, me included. I know a lot of people are not fans of the crates and that's fine but the fact is it's a competitive class and look how many different winners we had at 311 this year. The CT525 sounds like a great piece but there are so many 604 crates out there now it would be difficult to get a class up and running.

[Fesperman28]

Sorry if this is getting off the subject, but do you have any more info on the Mark Richards chassis class Slingingdirt? I checked the website and didn't find anything there. Thanks.

[dirtywhiteboy]

steel heads rule!!!!

[jojoracer]

Originally Posted by dirtwrap

JoJo, I don't know why you want to quit now, I thought we were having a friendly debate?

I think you are missing some parts, like a distributor, wires, fuel pump, valves, springs, pulleys, etc. However, herein lies the problem. The motor you just described would not in any way shape or form be able to be turned more than 7500 RPM reliably and would probably make 500-550 HP. Not a bad engine really though, I give you credit. However, I build one, and being a racer and wanting to win, I do the following:

Buy shaft rockers, titanium valves, and tool room valve springs so that I can turn it in the 8500 range. Add $2500. However:

The rotating assembly can't take that, so I have to buy a good steel crank and Carillo type rods. We used to be able to get this stuff from the cup guys, but that is all such short stroke stuff that well has dried up, so we have to buy new. Add another $2500. However:

You can't turn an engine like this with a wet sump and expect it to live. Plus, why would I want to give up 40-50 HP with that crank spinning in its own oil. So, we dry sump it, which means we have to buy a pump, lines, tank, oil pan, etc. Add $3,000. But:

We have gone this far, why would I run an off the shelf intake manifold, bone stock heads. I mean, everyone knows that if you decrease the valve angle on the cylinder heads it makes power, and the intake manifold has a plethora of power in it if done right. So now I need to pay some porting guru, buy custom pistons that are machined to the gnats behind to my valves, and get the cylinder heads rolled over and under-cover ported. Add $4,000.

I haven't even gotten into coatings, surface treatments and finishes, exotic metal cranks and rods, etc. So your 10,500 engine that was probably miscalculated as more like 13,000, has now turned into 25,000 engine minimum.

Now the kicker. Show me one tech man, one series, one racetrack, one sanctioning body that will police rules against any of the above. I can promise you, as highly as I think about the staff at 311, they are not interested in that at all because 1. it is not the business they are in, and 2. it would cost too much time and money.

If you like going to the racetrack, and getting beat, like I said, that is your perogative, I admire you for that. However, one point of contridiction I make with you, is that you stated before that you like going to the racetrack and participating and not tearing anything up. If you would take a look sometime, what cars are the ones that are being torn up? I will help you a little bit, it is not the ones up front.

Btw, the CT525 was not developed to compete with the supers. There is no competition for the true supers. I will attend the WoO finals at Lowes this week and marvel at the power and speed that those guys have. However, that amount of money they spend is astronomical, and not even feasible. There are several reasons those guys can race like that, but not a one of them is because they can make money at it with no sponsor or car owner help.

But, our short track guys do not for the most part have that luxury. Lets do the math. Say I buy a steelhead engine that is maxxed out per the rules we have now. Cost with all the bells and whistles, $28,000. This thing needs to be freshened at 1200 laps, and that is if you are lucky. Say I run 22 races at 311 because that is what is on the schedule and there are no rainouts. What does it pay, 1500 to win. I win every race and got to drive 30 laps per for doing it. I made 33,000, a net 5,000 profit. However, I went a little past half way on my rebuild, so my motor bill is atleast 3,000 for that. Plus, my $10 per gallon fuel ate into that too, plus travel, food, pit passes, THE CAR, etc.! Bad thing though, is being since I am now so pigeon-holed in the rules, my engine's market value is not even close to being half of what I paid for it. In fact, you would be lucky to get a third. And look at the drawbacks:

1. You are not going to win every race
2. You can't go anywhere else to race. Saturday nights, thats it.
3. You have no big money shows, not big point funds, no series to step up your racing program if you wish
It goes on and on and on.

Definition of Big Fish in Little Pond.

So don't you see, what we are lobbying for is for all racers to have the chance to break free from that. Look at the existing crate class. Yeah, the cars sound like school buses, they have no more power than your pickup truck, they are so slow to drive you can have a cup of coffee and a doughnut going down the straightaways, yadi yadi yadda. But:

1. We can race af virtually every track in the southeast
2. There are constantly 2, 3 and 5 thousand to win shows
3. We get to race at cool places like Charlotte, Eldora, etc.
4. If we want to sell out, your engines retain value, like 70-80 percent for a used engine. That is unheard of.
5. We have big money point funds to race for.
6. You don't get out-motored, and if you do, it is because they are cheating. And if they do that, look at the penalty. They are idiots for risking losing a full year of racing because of that.

Bottom line, I love racing. It is all I do, in work and play. When I raced limiteds, and had to run against Weeks, Rambo, Cooke, Hood, Clements, Sanders, Duvall, etc. it took every dime I had to do it. I raced over the course of 5 years, and ran a grand total of 38 races because every season I broke my engine (I had Clements stuff) and couldn't afford to put it back together. So I quit because in the end, it was no fun.

The crate stuff to me is a lot of fun. You may not think so, you may have different reasons to race, but you would have to think you have thought about winning at one point or another, didn't you? Don't you just once want to be on a level playing field?

Its coming, trust me. You can other be on the front side, or you can be trailing behind after it already happens. Its up to you.

I just though I said all I could say on the subject.........I'd agree with you 100% If I had the same
point of view, but we are reading from 2 different books.......

Missing parts well I already have those parts as do most other teams.......
and If I bought a 525 would I have to have some of those and more to boot...

Those engine mods you describe are correct but you would'nt have to buy 'em....
you could race without them.....and ported heads that's cheating...haha..

And
1. If winners are the only cars there you have 5 to 8 in crate and 4 or 5 in steel head..
2. Big money and you have to be almost perfect to crack the top 20..very stiff competition
3. I don't want those things so I can go on and on and on....

And also....
1.If I could afford $ 20,000 to tour the south east I guess I could buy something to tour with...

2. Tour money could be used to build a better engine....It's odvious that steel head drivers
at 311 don't want to tour anyways home track home boys like it used to be.....
3. I would not go to charlotte or eldora even If I had a free engine....
4. I agree with you on that one....engine resale...
5. big money big point fund, and alot of big budget super drivers to take it.
6. I think some get out motored and a head is turned and a rule is over looked...read on..

My bottom line I love to race, and working on the car, I like the people involved in dirt racing....
I will not spend my last penny to race I might be foolish, but not that foolish, no pun...
I think I understand how you raced and I understand why alot do it that way the 1st
time ,but figure out how to do it better the 2nd time around, that's my boat.......

My other bottom line is, I seen the crate motors come in....1 or 2 then the rule change
then 4 or 5 more then more rule changes, then the pure crate class no built motors...
$$ being pushed everywhere to assure those engines in every car....because of the
$$ being made on them........

My suggestion for a build motor in crates would ruin the crate class I guess. but would be fair
for the way I see it I crate motor in built class would ruin it also, turn about is fair play...

We had 17 to 20 cars there per week that's not bad is it.... at least we could run more than
1 lap before the caution came out....we did have a couple of bad races though, sorry...

My other thought is If steel heads allow crate motors and the $$ gets to stirring before long
the rule will be 525 only........they're way over my price range, I would have to quit.....If
So then A rule would keep me from running,, I want to build my own motor,...rev.... rev....
and race it. I don't want to buy it in a box, I don't want Gomez to build it, even though I have
nothing against Gomez, I want to put my hands on it. I'm still old school, the hard way or no way.
I'm sure there are more than me who feel this way, like the steel head class at 311.....or
else they'd just buy crate motors and run for all the big bucks and tour around all over, with all
the xtra $$$ they save on motors.all I'm saying is they might do it for the same reason I do...
all I'm saying don't ruin our build class with crate motors..... If you wanna run crate then run
crate, If I wanna run crate I'd buy one and run it.......every class at the track can't be crates.
unless your GM then you dream of that day when all motors in all race cars are bought from
them and they can pocket all that $$$,and If that's where we're heading so be it, I guess I'll
quit and find something else to do.....Dang it wilson see what you done went and did....lol..

and let's not do anymore math we all know racing is a bottomless bucket, how much $$ you throw
in it is how much it will cost. hint let the wife hold your wallet.......

WoW ain't there a limited on how long this post can be............sorry......

[dirtwrap]

JoJo,
I understand your viewpoint, I really do. Not that I have the same one, but I do respect that. You guys have a good thing going on and don't want to screw it up. It may never grow, may never be more competitive, cheaper to run, etc., but those things that are important to me, are not to you. And I see that.

I hope in the future that you have the opportunity to race the way that you want to, and I have the opportunity to race the way I want to. I think it is time to agree to disagree. Good luck to you!

[slingingdirt]

Originally Posted by Fesperman28

Sorry if this is getting off the subject, but do you have any more info on the Mark Richards chassis class Slingingdirt? I checked the website and didn't find anything there. Thanks.

racewise.net

[wilson618]

Hey thanks for the feed back . Hope steel heads keep getting the job done. Im still interested in maybe trying the 525 to see if its problem free motor like the 604. Its already been seen that the crate class had very few motor problems. But not looking to put anyone out hope everyone has a chance to for fill there dreams what ever that maybe.

[Buster]

Found this for the UFO super late model series running at tracks in PA, OH, WV

November 12, 2009 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

UFo Race Championship Releases Preliminary 2010 Rules

(Mars, PA) - Officials of the UFo Race Championship have formulated the initial rules for the 2010 season. With no major changes to the procedure rules, the car rules will see an exciting, affordable, new motor option implemented for the upcoming season.


2010 procedure rules have received a few tweaks to cover various scenarios occurred during previous events, but the "world's best racing format" will remain 100% intact. Drivers will qualify for UFo feature events from pill draw, extended-lap heats which allow enough time for all drivers to race into a qualifying position. A redraw will determine the feature starting grid for the top heat race finishers, which gives an opportunity of the pole position to each driver that performed well in the heat races. Pure double file restarts will continue to be the restart procedure of choice, allowing the racers to better utilize all grooves of the racing surface.


Current Super Late Model motor weights have been adjusted to better fit national touring series standards in 2010. Open motor, aluminum block cars will be required to weight a minimum of 2,300 pounds after the race. Steel block, open motor cars will now receive a 50 pound weight break with a minimum weight of 2,250 pounds. Both motor types will continue to utilize an 8" spoiler. Spec motor cars will also weigh a minimum of 2,250 pounds and will be allowed a 12" spoiler and 4" nose spillboard. At PPMS, spec motor cars will weight 2,300 and will be allowed the use of the 4" spillboard again in 2010.


The major rule addition for 2010 is that the GM 525-horsepower, aluminum motor will be accommodated as a competitive option. This motor is currently retailing for around $9,000 and was introduced to Super Late Model racing by the NASRA series based out of Indiana. The cars running a GM 525 motor will take a slightly more radical look as the free air will be used to even the difference in horsepower between the other motor types. GM 525 motor cars will be required to weight a minimum of 2,200 pounds and will be allowed use of a 12" spoiler. Two 5.5" nose spillboards and bigger dimension side spoilers will be permitted to give the lower power motor cars more side bite. Additional rules adjustments may be made as the actual performance in competiton of this motor is evaluated.


Because of the low cost of the GM 525 motor in relation to open motor costs and the comparability of the cost of a new GM 525 motor to a rebuild of an open motor, rebuilt motors will not be accepted for UFo competition in 2010 and the motor seals may only be opened for tech purposes. UFo officials feel this stance will better protect the integrity of the motor program. Protest procedures and a system to reassemble and reseal motors that have been torn down for tech purposes are currently being developed.


The emergence of the affordable GM 525 motor should help revitalize Super Late Model car counts in 2010. The economy of this motor will make it possible for a return to of some Super Late Model drivers that have left the class over the past seasons due to motor costs. Both Pittsburgh's PA Motor Speedway and Roaring Knob Motorsports Complex will be using the UFo car rules for their non-UFo shows in the upcoming season. UFo Race Championship events will remain open tire rule for 2010, and each track will set their own tire policy for non-UFo shows using these rules.


The UFo Race Championship Tour is proudly sponsored by Hoosier Tire Mid-Atlantic and Lias Tire/American Racer. 100% of their sponsorship will be given to the top point standing drivers in prize money and awards. More information on these sponsors may be found at http://hoosiermidatlantic.com and http://americanraceronline.com .


Complete information on the UFo Race Championship may be found at http://uforacechampionship.com . The Pittsburgh's PA Motor Speedway is located just west of Pittsburgh off US 22/30 at Imperial, PA off the Noblestown exit. The track website is http://ppms.com , office phone 412-279-7223 and race day phone 724-695-3363 or 724-695-0393. Roaring Knob Motorsports Complex is located off US 40 between Farmington and Markleysburg, PA. The track website is http://roaringknob.com , office phone 412-771-0124 and track phone 724-329-0306.


Tyler County Speedway is located south of Middlebourne, WV on SR 18 at the Tyler County Fairgrounds. The track website is currently under development with race day phone 304-758-2660. Circle Track Management Group may be contacted at 304-483-2536. Lernerville Speedway is located at Sarver, PA off SR 356. Track website is http://lernerville.com with office and track phone 724-353-1511. The Elkins Speedway is located north of Elkins, WV off US 219 at the town of Kerens. WV Motorsports Promotions may be contacted at 304-842-6003 with track phones of 304-363-3339, 304-636-0880 and 304-636-0881. The track website is http://elkinsspeedway.com .