Questions about Full Blown verses Crates

[pitprincess]

Looking for some information on how a "Racer" likes the crates,what are some of the benefits of having a crate, difference in performance on the track? How about the reactions of the crowd who attend?

[Racerchaser]

There are pros and cons to any racing. Crates are a class of racing that is taking the racing world with leaps and bounds.
But crates also have some hang ups. The one thing that I see with the crates is all the tech to keep racers from cheating. As long as they keep there little fingers out of the motor everything will be good.Also crates are not as fast as Super Lates, but who cares as long as it side by side racing. They have got to stay on top of it or Late Models will be right back where they are now.
It is so expensive to get motors that will run up front built today. Anywhere from $30,000.00 to $43,000.00.
Crates can be bought for less then $5000.00 race ready.
Now as far as crate series racing, its a promoters dream come true the way I see it. If you look at the purse for a WoO or Lucas Oil, it takes $10,000.00 to win and say $500.00 to take the green or more. That adds up quicker then they can sell tickets. The purse could easily surpass $50,000.00 to $60,000.00. Where as a crate show we will say is a $3,000.00 to win and $150.00 to take the green, it don't take a rocket scientist to see that a crate show is the way to go plus the car count will be greater.
As far as what the racer think about them, just look at who are racing them. When some tracks run a Super Late show along with a crate show a lot of teams bring 2 cars so they can run in both classes making for a good night of racing if you can finish good.

this is just some of the things I see.

[gb81racing]

The main benefit of a crate is it is a cheap reliable motor which is better for the average racer. the crate is slower than the big $ motors but at the same time is evens up the competition as far as motor and puts the outcome in the driver and cars hands with setup and driver ability. i dont think the turn out would be as big as far as fans for a crate race compared to a full blown motor race, for the simple reason most big name drivers have the big time motors and unless all SLM racing is cut out the big time motor races will have a bigger turn out. IMO

[w1ck3d0n3l0st]

Crates or cheaper most people don;t like them for some reason

[jhofficial]

Cause cheap produces cheap racing maybe????????????????:icon_theduh:

[DirtDawg]

Well I see the crates run every week and I can tell you that they don't provide the close racing they are supposed to. The race is between two guys every week and one of them has won ten races this year. The way I see it SLM provide closer racing.

At my home track who knows if they really like a crate motor but they have no choice if they want to run a late model.

[w1ck3d0n3l0st]

Crate latemodel can run a tight race and put on a show.

[Racerchaser]

John whats cheap about this


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[jhofficial]

John whats cheap about this


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Everyone says how cheap the crates are. NO? Everyone knows my feelings on this subject:wings_no:

[weaklink9]

u can get a crate motor for 4,000 dollars that is pretty cheap for a late model motor i think

[jhofficial]

u can get a crate motor for 4,000 dollars that is pretty cheap for a late model motor i think

Thats my point cheap car makes for no very good racing:smellie17:

[w1ck3d0n3l0st]

Can one day u will wake up and see that crates are gettin bigger then u think. I goin to hate it for you.

[jhofficial]

Can one day u will wake up and see that crates are gettin bigger then u think. I goin to hate it for you.

Its not 1153 pm I am trying to listen to the woo race from bullsgap and had to sit through a 45 min crate crash fest. They are over two seonds slower than 40 of the 59 slm's on a little bullring

[gb81racing]

Crates are cheaper but the teams with plenty of money will find other places to spend there $ to get the car faster. just like nascar they try to make it cheaper in areas but the teams are spending the money saved in other areas. Exactly

[gb81racing]

Everyone says how cheap the crates are. NO? Everyone knows my feelings on this subject:wings_no:
i have never watched a crate race so dont really know how the competition is but hopefully that will change after sat.

[gb81racing]

Well I see the crates run every week and I can tell you that they don't provide the close racing they are supposed to. The race is between two guys every week and one of them has won ten races this year. The way I see it SLM provide closer racing.

At my home track who knows if they really like a crate motor but they have no choice if they want to run a late model.
They dont provide close racing b/c IMO the driver ability and setup are diff and a couple teams are on there game but it provides equal competition as far as HP. that is where the driving ability shows up more and knowledge to set a car up.

[jhofficial]

BTW they are still running heats at midnight with the main still to come, whats the holdup.

they are hour behind only 11pm. But slow azz cratee time trails and crash fest feature crate race:smiley_804::whip3:

[w1ck3d0n3l0st]

You had to give him a reason to bring up a excuse about crates thats all he wantted.lol

[Racerchaser]

getting way off the thread but the main is tomorrow night

[pitprincess]

There are pros and cons to any racing. Crates are a class of racing that is taking the racing world with leaps and bounds.


But crates also have some hang ups. The one thing that I see with the crates is all the tech to keep racers from cheating. As long as they keep there little fingers out of the motor everything will be good.

I was trying to understand about the crate motors'. I heard that you can not work on them and have to ship them back to the companys inorder to have them gone through or worked on? I remember him saying something about the head bolts but I cant really remember the full convo, but he added that he could buy the head bolts right down the street from his house and the company is not even involved in racing? That concerns me.


Also crates are not as fast as Super Lates, but who cares as long as it side by side racing. They have got to stay on top of it or Late Models will be right back where they are now.

What part of the crates do you see that may end up back the way supers are now?


It is so expensive to get motors that will run up front built today. Anywhere from $30,000.00 to $43,000.00.
Crates can be bought for less then $5000.00 race ready.

Do you have to wait a time limit once you send your motors in to be worked on or do they send you a replacement while yours is being fixed? I guess what I am asking is if you unload, and drop a valve or a spring collaps are you able to work on that or does it have to go back to the company? I am only asking because I don't know, I am trying to learn more about the crates.


Now as far as crate series racing, its a promoters dream come true the way I see it. If you look at the purse for a WoO or Lucas Oil, it takes $10,000.00 to win and say $500.00 to take the green or more. That adds up quicker then they can sell tickets. The purse could easily surpass $50,000.00 to $60,000.00. Where as a crate show we will say is a $3,000.00 to win and $150.00 to take the green, it don't take a rocket scientist to see that a crate show is the way to go plus the car count will be greater.
As far as what the racer think about them, just look at who are racing them. When some tracks run a Super Late show along with a crate show a lot of teams bring 2 cars so they can run in both classes making for a good night of racing if you can finish good.

Thank you for your kindness. I do understand if he promotor don't make money, the late model racers are the ones at a loss as well as the fans of full blown.

this is just some of the things I see.


Thank you

[pitprincess]

The main benefit of a crate is it is a cheap reliable motor which is better for the average racer.
the crate is slower than the big $ motors but at the same time is evens up the competition as far as motor and puts the outcome in the driver and cars hands with setup and driver ability.

Do you see a way that may bring the crates and full blowns to be even on the field?

i dont think the turn out would be as big as far as fans for a crate race compared to a full blown motor race, for the simple reason most big name drivers have the big time motors and unless all SLM racing is cut out the big time motor races will have a bigger turn out. IMO
Thank you

[pitprincess]

Crates or cheaper most people don;t like them for some reason

I have been told (and it don't mean its so).the hp is different, Sometimes I think about the older days of growing up and my father having team. He wanted the cars as fast as he could get them and didn't care how much he spent to do it. I have been told that many don't like not being able to work on their own motor if something goes down.

Thank you

[pitprincess]

Well I see the crates run every week and I can tell you that they don't provide the close racing they are supposed to. The race is between two guys every week and one of them has won ten races this year. The way I see it SLM provide closer racing.

At my home track who knows if they really like a crate motor but they have no choice if they want to run a late model.

Is crate cars all that run in the area? Is there anything other then crates in your area?
Thank you

[pitprincess]

Crate latemodel can run a tight race and put on a show.

I agree, we had some crate cars race with us this season and they have did a great job out there with the full blown cars. They all make it seem so fun to be around no matter what they are racing.

Thank you

[pitprincess]

Everyone says how cheap the crates are. NO? Everyone knows my feelings on this subject:wings_no:

They may know your feelings but I don't? If its a can or worms I am opening here, I don't want to do that but I would like to know your honest opinion if you would to send it to me in privite message and I will not share the information.
Are you a racer? I am new here so I really don't know anyone from this forum at all.
Thank you

[pitprincess]

Crates are cheaper but the teams with plenty of money will find other places to spend there $ to get the car faster. just like nascar they try to make it cheaper in areas but the teams are spending the money saved in other areas. Exactly

I have heard this as well.

[DirtDawg]

I will tell you my opinion, I cant stand a crate motor. I think its the worst thing that has ever happened to dirt late model racing. If not in the motor teams find something else to get an advantage. Every week in the crates its like a demo derby. There are some good drivers that run crates but for the most part its a buch of non-drivers wrecking 400 hp cars. The nationals coming up next weekend will be a mess. They are running 75 laps, it will probably take like 3 hours to run this race.

[Pretender]

A fact that no one can argue is that every year more tracks are doing away with Super Late Models and every year more tracks are adding Crate Late Models. They are 2 different classes completly! Remember when they did away with the "wedge" car? Some proclaimed the world was ending! How about when they created mini-stocks? "What a joke" was the response from most! Now they are very popular even though they haven't made some of those cars and motors in over 20 years! Same with Street Stocks! Some people hate change. In the case of Crate Racing. Change must be good. It is the fastest growing segment in racing period! And beware of all the "rumors" you hear. Like the head bolts etc..
:havefun:

[rb]

Thats my point cheap car makes for no very good racing:smellie17:

Isn't that pretty much the equivalent of saying that all classes of cars besides SLM don't make for very good racing? I'm assuming those cars are much "cheaper" than the supers.

I guess it all depends on what you think "good" racing is. :smile: To me, that mainly boils down to the excitement of having cars close together, doing all they can to get passed the car ahead. Sure, the supers add more raw power to the mix. But, without the close racing and exciting passes, it's just as boring to me as any other "cheap" car race.

[rb]

And for the record, I don't have an opinion on supers versus crates. I can see the benefits to having both classes. Maybe crate racing will continue to see a lot of growth over the next few years. Maybe it's going to turn out to be a good thing overall for the state of dirt track racing? Maybe it will be easier for a lot of drivers to move into the late model class that couldn't otherwise afford it? Lots of maybes there, but only time will tell....

[pitprincess]

I will tell you my opinion, I cant stand a crate motor. I think its the worst thing that has ever happened to dirt late model racing. If not in the motor teams find something else to get an advantage. Every week in the crates its like a demo derby. There are some good drivers that run crates but for the most part its a buch of non-drivers wrecking 400 hp cars. The nationals coming up next weekend will be a mess. They are running 75 laps, it will probably take like 3 hours to run this race.
I come in contact with so many drivers that don't want to switch over to crates, before they will put a crate in their car they say they will get back out on the road traveling or retire. So I felt it would be best if I could find as much information on the crates verses full blown that I can.
Now I am just asking, only because I don't know, is a crate just the same as back tracking down to a streetstock motor with a late model body and frame?

[pitprincess]

Isn't that pretty much the equivalent of saying that all classes of cars besides SLM don't make for very good racing? I'm assuming those cars are much "cheaper" than the supers.

I think the crates do a good job on the tracks as all other classes
I guess it all depends on what you think "good" racing is. :smile: To me, that mainly boils down to the excitement of having cars close together, doing all they can to get passed the car ahead. Sure, the supers add more raw power to the mix. But, without the close racing and exciting passes, it's just as boring to me as any other "cheap" car race.
Thank you

[gb81racing]

the crate isnt that slow. i wouldnt go as far as saying back down to a street stock

[pitprincess]

A fact that no one can argue is that every year more tracks are doing away with Super Late Models and every year more tracks are adding Crate Late Models. They are 2 different classes completly! Remember when they did away with the "wedge" car?

I remember this very well, it was almost a blown out war here, then companys like GRT and Shaw stepped up and started producing winners and got things going in the right direction around here.
Some proclaimed the world was ending! How about when they created mini-stocks? "What a joke" was the response from most! Now they are very popular even though they haven't made some of those cars and motors in over 20 years! Same with Street Stocks! Some people hate change. In the case of Crate Racing. Change must be good. It is the fastest growing segment in racing period! And beware of all the "rumors" you hear. Like the head bolts etc..
:havefun:

I try and research as much as I can on the 'rumors' I have as well heard; if you buy a crate motor, for $2500.00 more you can get 25 more hp. Now I don't know if that is a fact that it happens or can happen, and its not likely that anyone is going to tell me that. I do forsee a builder saying; I built what they paid for. I was a racer too, I am not as smart as most, but I have played the game before my self, so I know if I done it, many others has, at some point down the road.

[pitprincess]

the crate isnt that slow. i wouldnt go as far as saying back down to a street stock

Here are some of the Street Stock Rules for us

1. Any American made production car or truck. Wheelbase must remain stock for chassis used.

2. Roll bars required. No screw joint fittings allowed. The minimum requirement for all roll bars shall be an "A" shaped affair, constructed of at least 1 1/2" OD pipe with bars running from upper right corner to lower left corner and the opposite from the other side of car, forming an "X" as viewed from front to rear. There must also be a cross bar on top of "A" and 4 bars down the side and 4 bars around the top to complete a caged affair around the driver. All roll bar pipes must be at least .095 in thickness and must have an additional support extending from rear upright to rear position of frame. No concrete reinforcement steel may be used. Gussets are required at all door bar welds.

3. Stock appearing OEM factory production bodies only. Must be stock Detroit production Olds, Buick, Pontiac, Chevy, Ford, AMC appearing bodies. NO Late Model style bodies allowed. Rubber nose and tail pieces allowed. Interior may be enclosed. Driver and passenger windows must open to a minimum of 12". Front of roof may be dropped 2 inches from stock height. Rear of roof must be in stock location. Cars cannot be altered in size. Front and rear firewalls mandatory. No rear view mirrors allowed. Must have driver�s compartment floor pan, may be fabricated. Rear spoiler must not exceed 8" in height. 3 forward braces, may not exceed 12" long. Sheet metal or aluminum doors and fenders allowed. Side skirts allowed. Factory trunk lid or stock appearing aftermarket trunk lid ~ steel or aluminum. Rear end must have enclosure ~ must go from trunk lid to rear bumper ~ minimum width 36".

4. All cars must be equipped with racing safety-approved seat belts bolted to the frame or sub-frame. Drivers� seat and steering must be in stock location. Racing seat is mandatory. Neck brace and window net (or arm restraints) are mandatory. 1/8" thick doorplate is mandatory. Back of cage to 9 inches in front of seat bottom to top.

5. Gas tanks must be in stock position. Fuel cells mandatory. 32 gallon maximum. Gas tanks/cells must be securely installed with 2 inch wide by 1/8 inch steel straps. Pump, racing or aviation gas only. NO nitrous oxide allowed.

6. Bumpers may be square tubing ~ must run inner rub rail ~ minimum size 1 � inch round tubing on rear bumper. All cars must remain stock appearing. Quick steer boxes allowed. Must have a chain loop in front and rear for wreckers to hook to.

7. WEIGHT: 3000 lb. after race with driver. All weights must be securely mounted to the frame of the car outside of the driver�s compartment. All weights must be painted white with numbers on it. Top 5 cars weigh after heat races. Last chance transfer spots will weigh. Top 5 will weigh after "A" feature.

MOTOR:
NO CUBIC INCH LIMIT

1. MOTOR BLOCK AND HEADS CAST IRON ONLY, NO DRY SUMP SYSTEMS, HEADS ANY ALUMINIUM INTAKE ALLOWED. Carburetor -- Holley 500 CFM 2 barrel carbs will be measured at the throttle bore 1 11/16" OD at the Ventura 1 3/8" OD, No exceptions. Collector type headers with mufflers are mandatory on all cars. No zommies or 180 degrees headers. No on board electronic devices allowed. No electronic monitoring computer devices capable of storing information. Tachometers only.

2. Stock production or mass-produced cast iron aftermarket heads only. Factory part number must be readable by tech official. On GM, Ford or Mopar maximum valve size allowed 2.05 - 1.625. AMC must be stock valve size. Stud girdles, guide plates and roller rockers are allowed. Aftermarket valves and springs allowed. Must be steel valves only. Porting of heads allowed. Engine setback will be allowed to centerline of the upper ball joint to the center of the #1 spark plug hole.

DRIVE TRAIN:
1. Transmissions: Only OEM production type transmissions will be allowed: 3 speed, 4 speed and
automatics. Clutch must be on crankshaft inside of bell housing. Driver must be able to put car in gear from park/neutral and move forward and reverse at time of inspection. Automatics may have bypass valve.

2. A 9 inch Ford or GN housing highly recommended. GM rear ends MUST have axle retention. Gold tracks or spools in rear end OK. Aluminum drive shafts allowed. Drive shaft must be painted white. Grand Nationals allowed.

3. No direct drive allowed. Mini-clutches allowed. Triple discs OK. You must have blow-proof bell housing.

TIRES - WHEELS - SUSPENSION:
Street or track tires only. Any asphalt pull offs. No Late Model dirt tires allowed. Must pass tech inspection. No tires softer than a 55 compound. Street tires OK - but not larger than 275/60/15. Steel 10" wide wheels maximum. Right rear bead lock only. 5/8" wheel studs MANDATORY. Tires may be grooved. No recaps. Mud caps on right side only.

BRAKES:
1. Brakes can be stock production or aftermarket. Brake pedals may have brake valve in reach of
driver. Brake adjusters are allowed within reach of the driver. Calipers must be stock OEM. No aluminum calipers or aftermarket calipers allowed. Calipers cannot be lightened. Rotors can be lightened.

Do these rules make our street stocks competitive with the crates? Reason for asking is there are allot of Street Stocks over here that want to move up into late models, and we have it where the crate cars can race with us now, but would like to see what would have to be changed to mix them in the field. I would like to see if its even possible for something like that to happen.

I just found the fast trax site.

[DirtDawg]

I come in contact with so many drivers that don't want to switch over to crates, before they will put a crate in their car they say they will get back out on the road traveling or retire. So I felt it would be best if I could find as much information on the crates verses full blown that I can.
Now I am just asking, only because I don't know, is a crate just the same as back tracking down to a streetstock motor with a late model body and frame?

A crate motor has the same power as a Super Street car around 400hp. The reason the crates are faster is simply the chassis. They can get more power to the ground and plus they handle alot better.
Thanks

[Dwayne]

6 Off Topic posts deleted..

[DirtDawg]

Is crate cars all that run in the area? Is there anything other then crates in your area?
Thank you
The track I go to week in and week out ran SLM last year and paid 1000 dollars to win and we had around 16 cars a week. We also had the crate lates and had the same car count as the supers. This year they cut the purse back for the supers and raised admission prices 3 dollars a person. The car count was low in the supers so they cut them out as a weekly division. Which SUCKS!! Now the biggest class we have is the crate lates and open wheel modified which also run a crate motor. The open wheel fields average between 8 to 10 cars a week. Next year the super streets will have the option to run crates too. I think this will hurt the track as attendence has been considerably lower due to the supers not running weekly. When we have a SLM special event the place is packed with standing room only. It don't make much sense to me to drop the class that makes you money.
Thanks

[rb]

The track I go to week in and week out ran SLM last year and paid 1000 dollars to win and we had around 16 cars a week. We also had the crate lates and had the same car count as the supers. This year they cut the purse back for the supers and raised admission prices 3 dollars a person. The car count was low in the supers so they cut them out as a weekly division. Which SUCKS!! Now the biggest class we have is the crate lates and open wheel modified which also run a crate motor. The open wheel fields average between 8 to 10 cars a week. Next year the super streets will have the option to run crates too. I think this will hurt the track as attendence has been considerably lower due to the supers not running weekly. When we have a SLM special event the place is packed with standing room only. It don't make much sense to me to drop the class that makes you money.
Thanks

Why would the track cut a class that was making them money? That's completely illogical.

I'm not trying to argue that crates should be a replacement for supers, I think there's room for both depending on the demand. Take any track. If a large enough number of local drivers want to move to crates, it seems logical that the track would create a class for them.

[DirtDawg]

Why would the track cut a class that was making them money? That's completely illogical.

I'm not trying to argue that crates should be a replacement for supers, I think there's room for both depending on the demand. Take any track. If a large enough number of local drivers want to move to crates, it seems logical that the track would create a class for them.
I dont know why they would cut the Supers I can't figure it out. Last year was the best year ever it just doesn't make since to cut them. Racing was AWESOME!!
I know your not trying to make that point. Your right there is room for both, for the last 3 or 4 years we have had good fields in both classes. The local drivers that were running supers last year are not running crates this year. They either lost sponsors and are sellling their stuff or running elsewhere or their cars are sitting.

[pitprincess]

Isn't that pretty much the equivalent of saying that all classes of cars besides SLM don't make for very good racing? I'm assuming those cars are much "cheaper" than the supers.

I guess it all depends on what you think "good" racing is. :smile: To me, that mainly boils down to the excitement of having cars close together, doing all they can to get passed the car ahead. Sure, the supers add more raw power to the mix. But, without the close racing and exciting passes, it's just as boring to me as any other "cheap" car race.

I have been told that they are cheaper on the start up. I have as well heard that there is plenty of change to switch over that the end results, you have as much money setting on the ground as you do in a full blown version with way less hp. "this is hear say" I personally don't know facts.

The track I go to week in and week out ran SLM last year and paid 1000 dollars to win and we had around 16 cars a week. We also had the crate lates and had the same car count as the supers. This year they cut the purse back for the supers and raised admission prices 3 dollars a person.

What did the SML Class pay before they cut the purse?



The car count was low in the supers so they cut them out as a weekly division. Which SUCKS!! Now the biggest class we have is the crate lates and open wheel modified which also run a crate motor. The open wheel fields average between 8 to 10 cars a week. Next year the super streets will have the option to run crates too. I think this will hurt the track as attendence has been considerably lower due to the supers not running weekly.

I don't think that some promoters know how many late model fans are around until they cut the class. Its amazing to me of how many fans these cars pull to watch them race. I by no means, mean anything bad about crates because I feel that down the road they will have the same fan base but it will take time for fans to adjust to what they once knew as a Full Blown version late model is or has died out.

When we have a SLM special event the place is packed with standing room only. It don't make much sense to me to drop the class that makes you money.
Thanks

Do any of you full blown fans/drivers see this being a perception problem among the public?

Why would the track cut a class that was making them money? That's completely illogical.

I'm not trying to argue that crates should be a replacement for supers, I think there's room for both depending on the demand. Take any track. If a large enough number of local drivers want to move to crates, it seems logical that the track would create a class for them.

I do agree that if there is room for both, bring em.
What about traveling series? I know that some series don't allow crates to race with them and some crate series don't allow the full blown to race with them. So, one strives to race while the other shuts doors on the racer or forces them *meaning if they don't have a crate, get one*inorder to race.
I do appreciate all of your talking with me on this forum, I have learned so much from all of you and I can not tell you how much it means to me to be able to talk with people who are not quick to bash you for asking questions about the late models and crates.

I dont know why they would cut the Supers I can't figure it out. Last year was the best year ever it just doesn't make since to cut them. Racing was AWESOME!!
I know your not trying to make that point. Your right there is room for both, for the last 3 or 4 years we have had good fields in both classes. The local drivers that were running supers last year are not running crates this year. They either lost sponsors and are sellling their stuff or running elsewhere or their cars are sitting.

I am not real smart, but.. If I was a good guesser, it maybe from start money. Not sure what gets paid out around there but around here most places pay 400-500 just to start per car.
Late Model Racing here was about gone until this season.. We have crates coming at us from the east side of the state, the south and the north. Out west they arnt out that way yet or if they are, they don't talk about it.